OK, I admit this isn't an athena question (but it is about how to take the raw data for it!). I want to do biaxial strain measurements. The idea is to deposit a thin film of the material to be investigated on a substrate and then deform the plate with a form of cylindrical symmetry. One can then solve for the stress of a plate using elasticity theory. The twist is that I need a plate that is stiff and (surprise) x-ray transparent ... and heat resistant to about 250 C. Kapton would be a wonderful choice, but is only made in thicknesses up to 175 microns (hardly stiff enough). There must be someone out there in the collective iffeffit world who knows of an appropriate material. Doing some web surfing, I came across another product by DuPont called Vespar that *may* be available in thicker forms. The specs I am looking for are: a thin (semiconducting) film has to stick to the surface, heat resistant to <=250 C, thick enough to be elastically stiff, and x-ray transparent. Any suggestions? Thanks for any help that may come my way in advance! Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568 tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939 email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp The lines below are in a Japanese font 〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官
Hi Paul, Kel-f is good to a little over 200 C. I have mm thicknesses of it. http://www.boedeker.com/pctfe_p.htm Jeff Jeff Terry Biological, Chemical, and Physical Sciences Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago IL 60616 phone 630-252-9708 fax 630-252-0358 http://mrmac.mr.aps.anl.gov/~jterry/ On Apr 26, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Paul Fons wrote:
OK, I admit this isn't an athena question (but it is about how to take the raw data for it!). I want to do biaxial strain measurements. The idea is to deposit a thin film of the material to be investigated on a substrate and then deform the plate with a form of cylindrical symmetry. One can then solve for the stress of a plate using elasticity theory. The twist is that I need a plate that is stiff and (surprise) x-ray transparent ... and heat resistant to about 250 C. Kapton would be a wonderful choice, but is only made in thicknesses up to 175 microns (hardly stiff enough). There must be someone out there in the collective iffeffit world who knows of an appropriate material. Doing some web surfing, I came across another product by DuPont called Vespar that *may* be available in thicker forms. The specs I am looking for are: a thin (semiconducting) film has to stick to the surface, heat resistant to <=250 C, thick enough to be elastically stiff, and x-ray transparent. Any suggestions? Thanks for any help that may come my way in advance!
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Wow that was fast. Thanks. Can you deposit something on it and have it stick? e.g. the idea is to deposit a thin film of a semiconductor on it and then place the film under biaxial stress to look at structural changes by xafs. On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Jeff Terry wrote:
Hi Paul,
Kel-f is good to a little over 200 C. I have mm thicknesses of it.
http://www.boedeker.com/pctfe_p.htm
Jeff
Jeff Terry Biological, Chemical, and Physical Sciences Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago IL 60616 phone 630-252-9708 fax 630-252-0358 http://mrmac.mr.aps.anl.gov/~jterry/
On Apr 26, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Paul Fons wrote:
OK, I admit this isn't an athena question (but it is about how to take the raw data for it!). I want to do biaxial strain measurements. The idea is to deposit a thin film of the material to be investigated on a substrate and then deform the plate with a form of cylindrical symmetry. One can then solve for the stress of a plate using elasticity theory. The twist is that I need a plate that is stiff and (surprise) x-ray transparent ... and heat resistant to about 250 C. Kapton would be a wonderful choice, but is only made in thicknesses up to 175 microns (hardly stiff enough). There must be someone out there in the collective iffeffit world who knows of an appropriate material. Doing some web surfing, I came across another product by DuPont called Vespar that *may* be available in thicker forms. The specs I am looking for are: a thin (semiconducting) film has to stick to the surface, heat resistant to <=250 C, thick enough to be elastically stiff, and x-ray transparent. Any suggestions? Thanks for any help that may come my way in advance!
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568 tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939 email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp The lines below are in a Japanese font 〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官
Hi Paul, I am sorry but I have never tried to evaporate anything onto it. Jeff Jeff Terry Biological, Chemical, and Physical Sciences Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago IL 60616 phone 630-252-9708 fax 630-252-0358 http://mrmac.mr.aps.anl.gov/~jterry/ On Apr 26, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Paul Fons wrote:
Wow that was fast. Thanks. Can you deposit something on it and have it stick? e.g. the idea is to deposit a thin film of a semiconductor on it and then place the film under biaxial stress to look at structural changes by xafs.
On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Jeff Terry wrote:
Hi Paul,
Kel-f is good to a little over 200 C. I have mm thicknesses of it.
http://www.boedeker.com/pctfe_p.htm
Jeff
Jeff Terry Biological, Chemical, and Physical Sciences Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago IL 60616 phone 630-252-9708 fax 630-252-0358 http://mrmac.mr.aps.anl.gov/~jterry/
On Apr 26, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Paul Fons wrote:
OK, I admit this isn't an athena question (but it is about how to take the raw data for it!). I want to do biaxial strain measurements. The idea is to deposit a thin film of the material to be investigated on a substrate and then deform the plate with a form of cylindrical symmetry. One can then solve for the stress of a plate using elasticity theory. The twist is that I need a plate that is stiff and (surprise) x-ray transparent ... and heat resistant to about 250 C. Kapton would be a wonderful choice, but is only made in thicknesses up to 175 microns (hardly stiff enough). There must be someone out there in the collective iffeffit world who knows of an appropriate material. Doing some web surfing, I came across another product by DuPont called Vespar that *may* be available in thicker forms. The specs I am looking for are: a thin (semiconducting) film has to stick to the surface, heat resistant to <=250 C, thick enough to be elastically stiff, and x-ray transparent. Any suggestions? Thanks for any help that may come my way in advance!
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官 _______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Paul: What temperature do you need to have the substrate at during deposition? Also, exactly what do you mean by transparent to x-rays, i.e. the energy? If the energy is high enough a very thin Si wafer should work. Carlo On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Paul Fons wrote:
Wow that was fast. Thanks. Can you deposit something on it and have it stick? e.g. the idea is to deposit a thin film of a semiconductor on it and then place the film under biaxial stress to look at structural changes by xafs.
On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Jeff Terry wrote:
Hi Paul,
Kel-f is good to a little over 200 C. I have mm thicknesses of it.
http://www.boedeker.com/pctfe_p.htm
Jeff
Jeff Terry Biological, Chemical, and Physical Sciences Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago IL 60616 phone 630-252-9708 fax 630-252-0358 http://mrmac.mr.aps.anl.gov/~jterry/
On Apr 26, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Paul Fons wrote:
OK, I admit this isn't an athena question (but it is about how to take the raw data for it!). I want to do biaxial strain measurements. The idea is to deposit a thin film of the material to be investigated on a substrate and then deform the plate with a form of cylindrical symmetry. One can then solve for the stress of a plate using elasticity theory. The twist is that I need a plate that is stiff and (surprise) x-ray transparent ... and heat resistant to about 250 C. Kapton would be a wonderful choice, but is only made in thicknesses up to 175 microns (hardly stiff enough). There must be someone out there in the collective iffeffit world who knows of an appropriate material. Doing some web surfing, I came across another product by DuPont called Vespar that *may* be available in thicker forms. The specs I am looking for are: a thin (semiconducting) film has to stick to the surface, heat resistant to <=250 C, thick enough to be elastically stiff, and x-ray transparent. Any suggestions? Thanks for any help that may come my way in advance!
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
¢©£³£°£µ¡Ý£¸£µ£¶£¸ °ñ¾ë¸©¤Ä¤¯¤Ð»ÔÅ죱¡Ý£±¡Ý1 ¤Ä¤¯¤ÐÃæ±ûÂ裴 ¶áÀܾì¸÷±þÍѹ©³Ø¥»¥ó¥¿¡¼ ¥Ý¡¼¥ë¡¦¥Õ¥©¥ó¥¹¼çǤ¸¦µæ´±_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
¢©£³£°£µ¡Ý£¸£µ£¶£¸ °ñ¾ë¸©¤Ä¤¯¤Ð»ÔÅ죱¡Ý£±¡Ý1 ¤Ä¤¯¤ÐÃæ±ûÂ裴 ¶áÀܾì¸÷±þÍѹ©³Ø¥»¥ó¥¿¡¼ ¥Ý¡¼¥ë¡¦¥Õ¥©¥ó¥¹¼çǤ¸¦µæ´±
-- Carlo U. Segre -- Professor of Physics Associate Dean for Special Projects, Graduate College Illinois Institute of Technology Voice: 312.567.3498 Fax: 312.567.3494 segre@agni.phys.iit.edu http://www.iit.edu/~segre
Hi Paul, I think you can get polyimide thicker than 175 microns. It may not go as Kapton, but maybe as Cirlex or Torlon or something else. I think goodfellow.com carries these in millimeter thick sheets and rods, and that they're still radiation and heat resistant. Goodfellow tends to be pricey, but has excellent information on thermal and mechanical properties. Using MgO, sapphire, or even diamond might be reasonable too. --Matt PS: I have a working build of PGPLOT with all of Aquaterm, X11, Postscript, and Png devices on Mac OS X. I'm still tweaking the makefile so that it links directly to the png objects to avoid possible conflicts with dynamic png and zlib libraries, but I should have a working ifeffit binary using this in a matter of days, and then be ready to tweak horae's Makefile.PL so that horae_update works.
Hi Matt, Both items are good to know. I didn't realize that the laminated kapton structures still had good heat resistance. Jeff On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Matt Newville wrote:
Hi Paul,
I think you can get polyimide thicker than 175 microns. It may not go as Kapton, but maybe as Cirlex or Torlon or something else. I think goodfellow.com carries these in millimeter thick sheets and rods, and that they're still radiation and heat resistant. Goodfellow tends to be pricey, but has excellent information on thermal and mechanical properties.
Using MgO, sapphire, or even diamond might be reasonable too.
--Matt
PS: I have a working build of PGPLOT with all of Aquaterm, X11, Postscript, and Png devices on Mac OS X. I'm still tweaking the makefile so that it links directly to the png objects to avoid possible conflicts with dynamic png and zlib libraries, but I should have a working ifeffit binary using this in a matter of days, and then be ready to tweak horae's Makefile.PL so that horae_update works.
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
I have still not decided on the final substrate material, but I have a couple of samples coming from Dupont of polyimide (same composition as Kapton) material called vespel. It is essentially inert as one would expect (like Kapton), but due to differences in manufacture I understand it is hydroscopic. From this I assume that the reaction for making Kapton is diffusion limited and Vespel is essentially a "polycrystalline" -- in the sense there are grains between which water can absorb -- form of Kapton. The energy in question is 11.6 keV (the Ge edge). Si is an interesting idea but the loss for a 200 micron thick substrate is essentially 1/e. It is certainly worth considering for higher energies though! The 1/e value for polyimide is about 3500 microns in contrast, while the 1/e value for MgO is about 300. As in my experiment I want to create biaxial stress in a thin film on the substrate, I worry that the stress/strain curves for MgO are too stiff. On the other hand, thin Si is a real possibility (darn, Si technology is everywhere!). I like the Si idea and might try that in parallel. Has anyone tried using thinned Si wafers (Virginia Technology ? sells mechanically thinned wafers I think -- I saw them at a MRS booth a long time ago). How fragile are the wafers? On 2004/04/28, at 0:32, Jeff Terry wrote:
Hi Matt,
Both items are good to know. I didn't realize that the laminated kapton structures still had good heat resistance.
Jeff
On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Matt Newville wrote:
Hi Paul,
I think you can get polyimide thicker than 175 microns. It may not go as Kapton, but maybe as Cirlex or Torlon or something else. I think goodfellow.com carries these in millimeter thick sheets and rods, and that they're still radiation and heat resistant. Goodfellow tends to be pricey, but has excellent information on thermal and mechanical properties.
Using MgO, sapphire, or even diamond might be reasonable too.
--Matt
PS: I have a working build of PGPLOT with all of Aquaterm, X11, Postscript, and Png devices on Mac OS X. I'm still tweaking the makefile so that it links directly to the png objects to avoid possible conflicts with dynamic png and zlib libraries, but I should have a working ifeffit binary using this in a matter of days, and then be ready to tweak horae's Makefile.PL so that horae_update works.
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568 tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939 email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp The lines below are in a Japanese font 〒３０５−８５６８ 茨城県つくば市東１−１−1 つくば中央第４ 近接場光応用工学センター ポール・フォンス主任研究官
Paul, A further idea along the thin Si path could be to use SOI (Silicon on Insulator) wafers - high quality wafers suitable even for Ge MBE applications. This then makes the growth process and handling easy. The trick is to then etch through the SiO2 layer with HF (from the sides) whilst applying a suitable mask... sounds nasty but is actually quite easy. Furthermore, if you are after 50-100um thick substrates, that thickness (with say 10% uniformity) can be easily obtained by post growth mechanical polishing. One thing you may have to consider is possible diffraction effects for the thicker films. Im not sure that your 1/e loss is really going to be a problem for you if you can prepare samples with a reasonable edge jump..... that sort of equates to measuring the As edge in transmission from a 10um thick GaAs film. Ive played with 10um Silicon before in a 2" wafer - I tried used it as a widgee (SP?) board between my fingers, and it was certainly intact when it left my hands. SiN 'windows' (ie SiN grown on Si, with a 'hole' in the middle with the Si removed) are also another alternative (these have been used for UHV metal depositions in for eg surface magnetism). Might be tricky to figure out the exact curvature though. What about a Be substrate / window - they oxidise easily but this might not matter; might be a bit stiff though. Mylar? I guess the end choice depends on your growth conditions / requirements Chris. At 09:58 AM 28/04/2004 +0900, you wrote:
I have still not decided on the final substrate material, but I have a couple of samples coming from Dupont of polyimide (same composition as Kapton) material called vespel. It is essentially inert as one would expect (like Kapton), but due to differences in manufacture I understand it is hydroscopic. From this I assume that the reaction for making Kapton is diffusion limited and Vespel is essentially a "polycrystalline" -- in the sense there are grains between which water can absorb -- form of Kapton. The energy in question is 11.6 keV (the Ge edge). Si is an interesting idea but the loss for a 200 micron thick substrate is essentially 1/e. It is certainly worth considering for higher energies though! The 1/e value for polyimide is about 3500 microns in contrast, while the 1/e value for MgO is about 300. As in my experiment I want to create biaxial stress in a thin film on the substrate, I worry that the stress/strain curves for MgO are too stiff. On the other hand, thin Si is a real possibility (darn, Si technology is everywhere!). I like the Si idea and might try that in parallel. Has anyone tried using thinned Si wafers (Virginia Technology ? sells mechanically thinned wafers I think -- I saw them at a MRS booth a long time ago). How fragile are the wafers?
On 2004/04/28, at 0:32, Jeff Terry wrote:
Hi Matt,
Both items are good to know. I didn't realize that the laminated kapton structures still had good heat resistance.
Jeff
On Apr 27, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Matt Newville wrote:
Hi Paul,
I think you can get polyimide thicker than 175 microns. It may not go as Kapton, but maybe as Cirlex or Torlon or something else. I think goodfellow.com carries these in millimeter thick sheets and rods, and that they're still radiation and heat resistant. Goodfellow tends to be pricey, but has excellent information on thermal and mechanical properties.
Using MgO, sapphire, or even diamond might be reasonable too.
--Matt
PS: I have a working build of PGPLOT with all of Aquaterm, X11, Postscript, and Png devices on Mac OS X. I'm still tweaking the makefile so that it links directly to the png objects to avoid possible conflicts with dynamic png and zlib libraries, but I should have a working ifeffit binary using this in a matter of days, and then be ready to tweak horae's Makefile.PL so that horae_update works.
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffithttp://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffithttp://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Dr. Paul Fons Senior Researcher National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science & Technology METI Center for Applied Near-Field Optics Research (CANFOR) AIST Central 4, Higashi 1-1-1 Tsukuba, Ibaraki JAPAN 305-8568
tel. +81-298-61-5636 fax. +81-298-61-2939
email: paul-fons@aist.go.jp
The lines below are in a Japanese font
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Paul: We use thin Si all the time inour crystal optics for fluorescence analyzers and for beam cleaners. The really thin wafers are quite bendable. We bend them to 200mm radii with no problem. You can find single sided polished wafers of about 125um thickness for 2" diameter wafers. These would be quite flexible and wouldn't absorb too much. Carlo On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Paul Fons wrote:
I have still not decided on the final substrate material, but I have a couple of samples coming from Dupont of polyimide (same composition as Kapton) material called vespel. It is essentially inert as one would expect (like Kapton), but due to differences in manufacture I understand it is hydroscopic. From this I assume that the reaction for making Kapton is diffusion limited and Vespel is essentially a "polycrystalline" -- in the sense there are grains between which water can absorb -- form of Kapton. The energy in question is 11.6 keV (the Ge edge). Si is an interesting idea but the loss for a 200 micron thick substrate is essentially 1/e. It is certainly worth considering for higher energies though! The 1/e value for polyimide is about 3500 microns in contrast, while the 1/e value for MgO is about 300. As in my experiment I want to create biaxial stress in a thin film on the substrate, I worry that the stress/strain curves for MgO are too stiff. On the other hand, thin Si is a real possibility (darn, Si technology is everywhere!). I like the Si idea and might try that in parallel. Has anyone tried using thinned Si wafers (Virginia Technology ? sells mechanically thinned wafers I think -- I saw them at a MRS booth a long time ago). How fragile are the wafers?
-- Carlo U. Segre -- Professor of Physics Associate Dean for Special Projects, Graduate College Illinois Institute of Technology Voice: 312.567.3498 Fax: 312.567.3494 segre@agni.phys.iit.edu http://www.iit.edu/~segre
participants (5)
-
Carlo U. Segre -
Chris Glover -
Jeff Terry -
Matt Newville -
Paul Fons