User interface question for Demeter
Hi Bruce, I and my group have finally started using Demeter Artemis, and in general it's wonderful. But there's one aspect of the user interface philosophy that I'm either not getting or finding clunky. In Horae, it was sometimes possible to rearrange the order of lists. For example, the list of groups in Athena could be rearranged by moving groups up and down, while the list of parameters in the GDS screen could be rearranged by using the "move" option. I'm not really finding that functionality in Demeter. The GDS screen does allow copying, but that requires a multiple-step process for a move. And I don't see a way to rearrange the order of groups in Athena at all. In addition, there's a new place where this kind of functionality would be helpful but appears to be lacking: the path list in the Data window. Since that list is now populated by drag-and-drop, it can end up in some pretty oddball orders. Am I just not grokking some UI feature that lets the user rearrange the order of lists? Dragging, for instance, doesn't seem to work. Or are there other features I should be using that make the order of those lists relatively unimportant? Or is ordering lists something that will appear in future versions, but it just hasn't been implemented yet? If the latter, then I also have a further feature suggestion, although it's not high priority. It would be quite useful if the path list in the Data window could be sorted in various ways, perhaps even with primary and secondary criteria. So, for example, sort by feff calculation, and then by importance. Or by number of legs, and then by Reff. While the marks menu lets us quickly select paths in a number of nifty ways, getting them in order of Reff or importance would be quite effective at cleaning up messy lists. --Scott Calvin Sarah Lawrence College
Scott: In Athena it was Alt-k to move up and Alt-k to move down. In D(Athena) it is the reverse - Alt-k = down, Alt-j = up; these functions are not obvious. Simon -----Original Message----- From: ifeffit-bounces@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov [mailto:ifeffit-bounces@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov] On Behalf Of Scott Calvin Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:38 AM To: XAFS Analysis using Ifeffit Subject: [Ifeffit] User interface question for Demeter Hi Bruce, I and my group have finally started using Demeter Artemis, and in general it's wonderful. But there's one aspect of the user interface philosophy that I'm either not getting or finding clunky. In Horae, it was sometimes possible to rearrange the order of lists. For example, the list of groups in Athena could be rearranged by moving groups up and down, while the list of parameters in the GDS screen could be rearranged by using the "move" option. I'm not really finding that functionality in Demeter. The GDS screen does allow copying, but that requires a multiple-step process for a move. And I don't see a way to rearrange the order of groups in Athena at all. In addition, there's a new place where this kind of functionality would be helpful but appears to be lacking: the path list in the Data window. Since that list is now populated by drag-and-drop, it can end up in some pretty oddball orders. Am I just not grokking some UI feature that lets the user rearrange the order of lists? Dragging, for instance, doesn't seem to work. Or are there other features I should be using that make the order of those lists relatively unimportant? Or is ordering lists something that will appear in future versions, but it just hasn't been implemented yet? If the latter, then I also have a further feature suggestion, although it's not high priority. It would be quite useful if the path list in the Data window could be sorted in various ways, perhaps even with primary and secondary criteria. So, for example, sort by feff calculation, and then by importance. Or by number of legs, and then by Reff. While the marks menu lets us quickly select paths in a number of nifty ways, getting them in order of Reff or importance would be quite effective at cleaning up messy lists. --Scott Calvin Sarah Lawrence College _______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
On 07/03/2013 10:52 AM, Bare, Simon R wrote:
In Athena it was Alt-k to move up and Alt-k to move down. In D(Athena) it is the reverse - Alt-k = down, Alt-j = up; these functions are not obvious.
Did I really switch them? That was unintentional. Yikes! The (alt/crtl)-(k/j) key sequences *are* explained in the document http://bruceravel.github.io/demeter/aug/ui/glist.html Most key sequences are hinted to in their menu labels, but there are not menu entries for (alt/crtl)-(k/j). It just doesn't make much sense to me to have menu entries for those actions. I am not sure how to indicate on screen that those 4 key sequences exist. If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears. Cheers, B -- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973 Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel
On 07/03/2013 10:52 AM, Bare, Simon R wrote:
In Athena it was Alt-k to move up and Alt-k to move down. In D(Athena) it is the reverse - Alt-k = down, Alt-j = up; these functions are not obvious.
In new Athena it is done wrongly. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys This will be fixed in the next release (0.9.18). Sorry for that bit of confusion. And for those who have the backwards key binding in muscle memory when using Athena, I doubly apologize. But the meanings of j and k as down and up are well established. B -- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973 Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel
Hi Bruce,
I re-started use (D)Artemis last week, it is great work,
But, I have the same problem with data list and path list, each time I open
the project it change the order.
And another point is about fit history, it is necessary save all old
fits?, because if you have many data and feff calculations it is large
file, Ok sometime is important for statistical report and I can discard
some fits, but into compressed fpj file continue that fit directory with
many files, So if you reopen project it is very slow each time you add more
fits and sometimes paths included in the fit is lost. It may be my OS
distribution or some configuration?
Exist the way to dis-enable the automatic save fits, only save if I
consider a good fit.
Chachi
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Bruce Ravel
On 07/03/2013 10:52 AM, Bare, Simon R wrote:
In Athena it was Alt-k to move up and Alt-k to move down. In D(Athena) it is the reverse - Alt-k = down, Alt-j = up; these functions are not obvious.
In new Athena it is done wrongly. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Arrow_keys#HJKL_keyshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys
This will be fixed in the next release (0.9.18). Sorry for that bit of confusion. And for those who have the backwards key binding in muscle memory when using Athena, I doubly apologize. But the meanings of j and k as down and up are well established.
B
-- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------**------ bravel@bnl.gov
National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973
Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel ______________________________**_________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.**gov
http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.**gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffithttp://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
On 07/03/2013 03:03 PM, Chachi Rojas wrote:
I re-started use (D)Artemis last week, it is great work, But, I have the same problem with data list and path list, each time I open the project it change the order.
I've never seen this behavior. I'd need a clear example in order to do anything about it.
And another point is about fit history, it is necessary save all old fits?, because if you have many data and feff calculations it is large file, Ok sometime is important for statistical report and I can discard some fits, but into compressed fpj file continue that fit directory with many files, So if you reopen project it is very slow each time you add more fits and sometimes paths included in the fit is lost. It may be my OS distribution or some configuration?
Exist the way to dis-enable the automatic save fits, only save if I consider a good fit.
There's not, but each fit only occupies about 200k and mostly does not get imported unless you explicitly look at it in the history dialog. That said, I acknoweldge that this is the slowest part of opening a project. I've spent a lot of time working on optimizing that, but I could certainly stand to do some more. In the history dialog, there is a way to discard fits one-by-one -- right click on an item in the list -- discard is one of the options. Another option in that context menu is to "export" a fit. That will write out a project with only that one in the history. In any case, I will think about ways of giving you finer control over history creation. B -- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973 Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel
Hi Bruce,
That's exactly what I do, discard one by one, but here is the problem, that
only mark a fit, it takes some time (very slow) opening up all the fit
contents.
As I work with nanostructured systems, the fit is always done by attempting
many different models.
Well, my suggestion would be (for the next release) add an option in
preferences to enable or disable automatic saving, and in the log window a
button to save (to artemis project - not to a file) of course, when it is
acceptable.
One last question, what is the best reference of Demeter to cite in a
publication.
Chachi
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Bruce Ravel
On 07/03/2013 03:03 PM, Chachi Rojas wrote:
I re-started use (D)Artemis last week, it is great work, But, I have the same problem with data list and path list, each time I open the project it change the order.
I've never seen this behavior. I'd need a clear example in order to do anything about it.
And another point is about fit history, it is necessary save all old
fits?, because if you have many data and feff calculations it is large file, Ok sometime is important for statistical report and I can discard some fits, but into compressed fpj file continue that fit directory with many files, So if you reopen project it is very slow each time you add more fits and sometimes paths included in the fit is lost. It may be my OS distribution or some configuration?
Exist the way to dis-enable the automatic save fits, only save if I consider a good fit.
There's not, but each fit only occupies about 200k and mostly does not get imported unless you explicitly look at it in the history dialog. That said, I acknoweldge that this is the slowest part of opening a project. I've spent a lot of time working on optimizing that, but I could certainly stand to do some more.
In the history dialog, there is a way to discard fits one-by-one -- right click on an item in the list -- discard is one of the options.
Another option in that context menu is to "export" a fit. That will write out a project with only that one in the history.
In any case, I will think about ways of giving you finer control over history creation.
B
-- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------**------ bravel@bnl.gov
National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973
Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel ______________________________**_________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.**gov
http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.**gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffithttp://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Hi Chachi,
I am working on something very similar to your suggestion for the next release. Another option that is in recent versions of Artemis that may be helpful to you is the item in the File menu that says "Save current fit". The purpose of this is to save a project file with the current fitting model and *without* the history.
As for a reference, I prefer that people continue using the same reference as always -- the one from JSR.
I also want to mention that I am away from home for a while. I know there are some outstanding questions on the mailing list -- for example, the other day there was a problem with Athena's PCA implementation. I probably won't be able to address that until I return home late next week.
Cheers,
B
Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2
Building 535A
Upton NY, 11973
Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel
Software: https://github.com/bruceravel
________________________________________
From: ifeffit-bounces@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov [ifeffit-bounces@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov] on behalf of Chachi Rojas [crojasa@unmsm.edu.pe]
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:56 AM
To: XAFS Analysis using Ifeffit
Subject: Re: [Ifeffit] User interface question for Demeter
Hi Bruce,
That's exactly what I do, discard one by one, but here is the problem, that only mark a fit, it takes some time (very slow) opening up all the fit contents.
As I work with nanostructured systems, the fit is always done by attempting many different models.
Well, my suggestion would be (for the next release) add an option in preferences to enable or disable automatic saving, and in the log window a button to save (to artemis project - not to a file) of course, when it is acceptable.
One last question, what is the best reference of Demeter to cite in a publication.
Chachi
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Bruce Ravel
I am pretty sure you can delete old fits in the fit log. Check and remove them. Chris Patridge ******************************** Christopher J. Patridge, PhD NRC Post Doctoral Research Associate Naval Research Laboratory Washington, DC 20375 Cell: 315-529-0501 On 7/3/2013 3:03 PM, Chachi Rojas wrote:
Hi Bruce,
I re-started use (D)Artemis last week, it is great work, But, I have the same problem with data list and path list, each time I open the project it change the order.
And another point is about fit history, it is necessary save all old fits?, because if you have many data and feff calculations it is large file, Ok sometime is important for statistical report and I can discard some fits, but into compressed fpj file continue that fit directory with many files, So if you reopen project it is very slow each time you add more fits and sometimes paths included in the fit is lost. It may be my OS distribution or some configuration?
Exist the way to dis-enable the automatic save fits, only save if I consider a good fit.
Chachi
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Bruce Ravel
mailto:bravel@bnl.gov> wrote: On 07/03/2013 10:52 AM, Bare, Simon R wrote:
In Athena it was Alt-k to move up and Alt-k to move down. In D(Athena) it is the reverse - Alt-k = down, Alt-j = up; these functions are not obvious.
In new Athena it is done wrongly. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#HJKL_keys
This will be fixed in the next release (0.9.18). Sorry for that bit of confusion. And for those who have the backwards key binding in muscle memory when using Athena, I doubly apologize. But the meanings of j and k as down and up are well established.
B
-- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov mailto:bravel@bnl.gov
National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973
Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel _______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov mailto:Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
_______________________________________________ Ifeffit mailing list Ifeffit@millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov http://millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov/mailman/listinfo/ifeffit
Scott, I think I am flattered that you have mistaken laziness for philosophy. I think I will stick with that in the future. Whenever there is a feature that seems to be absent from my software, then all users should assume there is a deep philosophical reason for its absence. I am such a very deep fellow, after all! Silliness aside, I am fully aware that the various lists in Artemis need the ability to be reordered. It just hasn't been implemented in any serious way. There really isn't a compelling reason other than that no one had yet complained about it. I had, in fact, never considered resorting path lists in the way you suggest. That's an interesting idea. I'll bump all this up on the to-do list. It certainly won't be in the next release, but hopefully the one after. B On 07/03/2013 10:38 AM, Scott Calvin wrote:
Hi Bruce,
I and my group have finally started using Demeter Artemis, and in general it's wonderful. But there's one aspect of the user interface philosophy that I'm either not getting or finding clunky.
In Horae, it was sometimes possible to rearrange the order of lists. For example, the list of groups in Athena could be rearranged by moving groups up and down, while the list of parameters in the GDS screen could be rearranged by using the "move" option.
I'm not really finding that functionality in Demeter. The GDS screen does allow copying, but that requires a multiple-step process for a move. And I don't see a way to rearrange the order of groups in Athena at all. In addition, there's a new place where this kind of functionality would be helpful but appears to be lacking: the path list in the Data window. Since that list is now populated by drag-and-drop, it can end up in some pretty oddball orders.
Am I just not grokking some UI feature that lets the user rearrange the order of lists? Dragging, for instance, doesn't seem to work. Or are there other features I should be using that make the order of those lists relatively unimportant? Or is ordering lists something that will appear in future versions, but it just hasn't been implemented yet?
If the latter, then I also have a further feature suggestion, although it's not high priority. It would be quite useful if the path list in the Data window could be sorted in various ways, perhaps even with primary and secondary criteria. So, for example, sort by feff calculation, and then by importance. Or by number of legs, and then by Reff. While the marks menu lets us quickly select paths in a number of nifty ways, getting them in order of Reff or importance would be quite effective at cleaning up messy lists.
-- Bruce Ravel ------------------------------------ bravel@bnl.gov National Institute of Standards and Technology Synchrotron Methods Group at NSLS --- Beamlines U7A, X24A, X23A2 Building 535A Upton NY, 11973 Homepage: http://xafs.org/BruceRavel Software: https://github.com/bruceravel
participants (6)
-
Bare, Simon R
-
Bruce Ravel
-
Chachi Rojas
-
Christopher Patridge
-
Ravel, Bruce
-
Scott Calvin