Gustavo de Medeiros Azevedo said: GdMA> I''ve recently started using IFEFFIT, and I'm a bit confused on GdMA> the way it estimates the error bars. In the IFEFFIT Reference GdMA> guide, (page 38) you mention the variables epsilon_k and GdMA> epsilon_r, where the measurement uncertainty is stored. In GdMA> that same page, you remark that changing the values of GdMA> epsilon_k and epsilon_r will change chi_squared, Chi-reduced GdMA> but won't affect R_factor and the error bars. As far as I GdMA> understand, the error bars should given by the diagonal GdMA> elements of the co-variance matrix, multiplied by the square GdMA> root of Chi_reduced. In this way, I would expect that varying GdMA> epsilon_k or epsilon_r should affect the estimated GdMA> uncertainties. GdMA> Could you, please, clarify this point? Gustavo, Well, I live one time zone to the east of Matt, so I guess I'm seeing this before he does ;-) I'll take a stab at your question. epsilon_r is measured from the data by performing the Fourier transform of chi(k) and then computing the root mean square value of the magnitude of chi(R) between 15 and 25 Angstroms. The assumption is that, because of disorder and mean-free-path effects, any finite spectral content in that R range can only be due to white noise in the data. The relationship between epsilon_k and epsilon_r is established by the normalization of the Fourier transform. Because epsilon_R enters into the fitting metric, chi-square, when the fit is done in R-space (or epsilon_k for a fit in k space), you are correct that the value of chi-square and reduced chi-square are affected by the value of epsilon_r. The R_factor is just a percentage misfit and so is independent of epsilon. The error bars are independent of epsilon as reported by ifeffit, but the reason for this requires some explanation. The first question to ask at this point is whether it is valid to presume that the dominant error in the exafs measurement is the shot noise measured from the high-R portion of the Foruier spectrum. In most situations it is not -- that is, in most situations the shot noise is much smaller that detector non-linearity, sample inhomogeneity, errors in the theoretical fitting standards, errors in the empirical fitting standards, or a whole host of other problems you might have in a real experiment. Particularly at 3rd generation light sources, photon flux and the shot noise associated with it is the least of your problems. By a long stretch. Thus, the way ifeffit uses to estimate epsilon is manifestly wrong. It is way too small, thus chi-square is very large. Even for a fit that is clearly a good fit, such as the common example of a copper foil that comes with the Artemis, the reduced chi-sqare is much larger than 1. By the formalism of Gaussian statistics, we expect that a good fit has a reduced chi-square of about 1. So what's going on? Well, the problem is that ifeffit makes no attempt (since it operates within a Gaussian framework and not a Baysian framework) to estimate all the other sources of error besides shot noise. Thus it is almost always doomed to have reduced chi-square much larger than 1 (except in the odd case when the shot noise is quite large). So what about the error bars? The diagonal elements of the covarience matrix (i.e. the error bars) are much too small for the same reason that the reduce chi-square is too large, i.e. because epsilon has been vastly underestimated. Ifeffit then makes the assumption that the fit it just finished was, in fact, a good fit. It assumes that the reason that reduced chi-square is not near one is NOT because it is a bad fit, but rather because epsilon has been significantly underestimated. Multiplying the error bars by the square root of reduced chi-square is mathematically equivalent to re-evaluating the covarience matrix with epsilon set to the value it must be for reduced chi-square to equal 1. Thus, it is the mathematical equivalent of assuming that the fit is, in fact, a good fit. So finally, you asked how setting epsilon to some other value will effect the fit. The answer is "Not much." It will have some small effect in how the fit is evaluated numerically because chi-square may be of a different order of magnitude. However, because Ifeffit rescales the error bars under the assumption that the fit was good, manually changing epsilon will have little effect on the results. One more thing needs to be said. Because Ifeffit *always* assums that the fit is a good fit and reports statistics accordingly, it is the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE USER to actually evaluate the quality of the fit. Are the best fit values physically reasonable? Are the parameters highly correlated? Are the rescaled error bars of a reasonable size? Ifeffit cannot answer those questions. You must. And that, finally, is why a human needs to do data analysis. Sadly we cannot train a computer or a monkey to decide if the fit is, in fact, the one you want to publish. Hope that helps, Bruce -- Bruce Ravel ----------------------------------- ravel@phys.washington.edu Code 6134, Building 3, Room 222 Naval Research Laboratory phone: (1) 202 767 5947 Washington DC 20375, USA fax: (1) 202 767 1697 NRL Synchrotron Radiation Consortium (NRL-SRC) Beamlines X11a, X11b, X23b, X24c, U4b National Synchrotron Light Source Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973 My homepage: http://feff.phys.washington.edu/~ravel EXAFS software: http://feff.phys.washington.edu/~ravel/software/exafs/