[Ifeffit] Preparation help with fly ash sample with diluted Tl
Mengling Yi Stuckman
stuckman.12 at osu.edu
Thu Sep 29 16:43:56 CDT 2011
Thanks for all the response! They are all very helpful!
Just want to make sure that I get the information right and a few follow-up
1. I'd better contact the beamline engineer to ask for the sensitivity for
2. Fe fluorescence interference could be decreased by adding a few layer of
Al foil. I knew that I did that when I measured As fluorescence. So this is
3. Pb fluorescence interference is very hard to eliminate. Therefore, EXAFS
for Tl is very hard to get. Actually, I didn't see any papers on Tl EXAFS
and maybe that is why. The research question I want to answer is:
what structure Tl is bond to in the fly ash? Tl(I) and Tl(III) could
theoretically bind to sulfate, nitrate, bicarbonate, etc.. I saw some papers
that are using nitrate, sulfate, bicarbonate Tl salt as references for
micro-XANES measurement. And then they compared the XANES in the end. Is
that a better approach than EXAFS to answer the question?
4. To increase the intensity, we can condense the ash by pressing it into
pellet. The fly ash from coal combustion power plants are already pretty
compacted. They are mainly gypsum in most cases. I dont' know if that helps
5. This is the first time I heard about non-energy dispersive detector, e.g.
PIPS diode. We are planning to use 13-element detector. What is the
advantage of using one way or the other? If I do want to concentrate on
XANES, would be helpful to ask the beamline engineer for the possibility of
Thank you all again,
2011/9/29 "Dr. Dariusz A. Zając" <kicaj at ifj.edu.pl>
> Dear Matt,
> this is very good introduction for fluorescence measurements on diluted
> samples... Like a tutorial...
> I just want to add small comments: as I understood the sample is an ash, so
> maybe will be possible to condense it, e.g. press it into the pellet. If
> there will be no possible to measure exafs (due to heavier elements), and is
> needed to focus on xanes, than I suggest to use non-energy dispersive
> detector, e.g. PIPS diode. It is very often more sensitive than regular
> fluorescence detectors, and can take higher count-rate.
> please correct me if I am wrong...
> W dniu 11-09-29 17:02, Matt Newville pisze:
> Dear Mengling,
>> The basic issues are: will there be enough Tl fluorescence counts in
>> the detector, and will you be able to see a decent edge. From you
>> spreadsheet of concentrations, the elements that stand out are: Fe
>> and to a lesser extent Zn, and Pb.
>> The Fe and Zn will dominate the fluorescence getting to your detector.
>> This hurts sensitivity to Tl because the solid-state detectors can
>> handle a limited flux themselves (typically on the order of 100K Hz).
>> The high Fe concentration means the Fe Kalpha will dominate the
>> emission when you shine 12.7keV x-rays on the sample. The
>> simple-but-effective remedy is to put aluminum foil on the detector,
>> as aluminum will absorb Fe fluorescence (at 6.4keV) about 4x more than
>> the Tl fluorescence (at 10.3keV). You might need a few hundred
>> microns of aluminum foil, and may need to try a few different amounts
>> to cut down the Fe counts sufficiently.
>> The other issue is Pb. The Tl L3 edge is at 12.658keV. once you hit
>> the Pb L3 edge, at 13.1 keV, the Pb Lalpha fluorescence will dominate
>> the Tl Lalpha fluorescence -- these lines (10.3 and 10.5 keV,
>> respectively) are too close together to effectively filter
>> electronically. Even well below the Pb L3 edge, you'll start to see
>> some Pb Lalpha fluorescence. Since the Pb concentration might be 100x
>> the Tl concentration, that would be something to look for, but there's
>> not a lot that can be done about it. Anyway, that really only limits
>> the EXAFS, not so much the ability to get XANES. The Tl
>> concentrations are low, but I think that at a good APS BM line like
>> 5-BM, getting Tl L3 XANES is just a matter of time.
>> Hope that helps,
>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Mengling Yi Stuckman
>> <stuckman.12 at osu.edu> wrote:
>>> Dear Ifeffit Community,
>>> I am currently working on project "Evaluating Speciation of Thallium in
>>> Fly Ash". The project was accepted by APS and we will conduct our
>>> measurement on beamline 5-BM-D.
>>> My fly ash sample has Tl concentration ranging from 0.5ppm to 13ppm. How
>>> I know whether the sample can generate enough photon counts if using
>>> fluorescence mode? what would be the appropriate sample preparation
>>> procedure I should follow? Is there any interference I should pay
>>> I understand that I should use Hephaestus, but I don't know how to do
>>> if my sample contains lots of different oxides. I attached the elemental
>>> composition in this email. Most metals should be in form of oxides, or
>>> Any input would be highly appreciated,
>>> Ifeffit mailing list
>>> Ifeffit at millenia.cars.aps.anl.**gov <Ifeffit at millenia.cars.aps.anl.gov>
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Mengling Yi Stuckman
Graduate Research Assistant
Civil and Environmental Engineering and Geodetic Science
Ohio State University
2070 Neil Ave., Columbus, OH, 43210
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